Q:First of all, how old are you?
DC: I'm 39, but i tell everyone I'm 32.

Q: You've had quite a bit of musical experience since your early teens and that!, like on a professional level!?
DC: Yeah. I started before i was out at 'Hosko' {SP?} i had gone on road trips filling in for soundmen who couldn't make it, and stuff like that. I'd done a few local gigs in town, done a few CD appearances, and I've always been doing this. I pretty much knew what i wanted to do since i was about 6 years old.

Q: So you know pretty much every aspect of the business then, right?
DC: I wouldn't claim to be a 'professor' of it by any means.

Q: Now the 2500 gigs you mentioned [reference to bio], is that bands you actually played with?
DC: Yeah, that's an estimate done about 2 years ago. We figure it's probably more than 2500, but that's a safe number. And that includes everything from sit-in gigs to where i spent years touring in cover bands as a young musician. I answered an ad one day, i think i was 17 or 18, and we spent 2 weeks in the garage, and then went on the road for the better part of 8 - 10 years!

Q: Now was cover bands the big thing back then?
DC: When i was a kid, it's really funny, because it was hard to find a place that would let you play your own stuff. When you put your own tune into the set on the 'covertune circuit' [as it's called] in the Prairies of Canada, and even in BC, they would speak up and complain about it because the deal is that you were there to play the songs off the radio and get people to drink beer, and sell beer, right!? So at first it was really strange to me - being someone who had written since being a kid - creative. It was frustrating, and now it's changing a lot, there's a lot more venues that are looking for the original howl ; which is great.

Q: Did you do any recording back then?
DC: I didn't get in to a lot of recording that would feature me, know what i mean!? Every time i got an opportunity to do a few tracks, there's a fellow by he name of Tony Capputo who had a band called 'Lynx' out of Toronto, and when i was about 19 I was playing in a band called 'London Times', and this gentleman and his manager hired myself, and my bass player and drummer to do the rhythm tracks for the album he happened to be doing in Edmonton at the time. My introduction to the recording studio was being able to work in one, and that been about the time i was 15 or 16. I had taken demos in to record companies, and got the traditional door slam. But if you stop there, then you're dead in the water, right!?

Q: Anything that actually did come out?
DC: I never did find out what happened with the Tony Capputo album. The London Times did an Ep in 1994, which was the last thing i did before Bernie. It was called "Tuned Not Wired", and it was a 3 song venture as well. And London Times also did an album in the early 80s in Edmonton. I don't even know if you'd be able to get a hold of it. It was done in the early 80s in Edmonton, and it more of a demo than anything else.

Q: What label did these come out on?
DC: The London Times, the last one came out on the same label as the one with Bernie, my own label. I've been pretty much an independent as much as you can be.

Q: Any of the people that you've played with over the years go on to anything of notoriety?
DC: Yes, i used to jam with a bunch of guys in my hometown of St. Albert , Alberta -- and there were 2 people there, a guy named Kim Upright, an unbelievable drummer , and Moe Berg from Pursuit Of Happiness. We used to be able to jam with these guys on occasion. I've been through several deals to tell you the truth. There was a band called 'Paris' - we had a record contract and the whole 9 yards and it got pulled at the last minute [a similar sort of things as to what happened to Bernie and the boys, actually]. So I've been down that road.

Q: Now, have you always been out in BC?
DC: No, i came out to BC in 1985.

Q: Have you been in Ontario.
DC: I spent very little time there, i think i lived there once. I think in all the shows i played, the only eastern show we did - Ontario was the furthest we went.

Q: Vancouver and BC's got quite a scene, a lot of bands have come out of there. Have you ever cross paths with anyone?
DC: Oh yeah, we used to back up a lot of the bands that used to come out of BC. For a while, when i moved the band London Times from Alberta to BC, and the drummer we picked up here was the drummer from Bad English, which he went on to do quite well with, and he had replaced the drummer that went on to Bryan Adams. And we backed up 'Pretty Rough' -- we did quite a few shows like that. And i spent a good portion of my time doing things like the Jazz Festivals, because frankly I could make better money as a sound tech. The 2500 shows are played gigs, but like they have the Jazz Festival here every year in Victoria, BC , and I think it was '91 I got the opportunity to do the mix for Bill Bruford and people like that. It was decent pay as a sound tech, i didn't get to play guitar, but i got to meet some really cool people.

Q: How did you get involved with Bernie and In Transit?
DC: Again, i probably should've pursued my own recording career a lot sooner, but i did a lot of piece-meal session stuff and tour shows, and shit like that. And in 1996 I found out through a friend of mine who runs a sound company in town that the singer from Uriah Heep was coming back here, and was going to be here for a couple of months in the winter and wanted to put a band together, and so i told my friend John "give him my phone number! If he needs a guitar player - call me!" And lo and behold i got a call about 2 weeks later. I went to an audition, and ended up getting the show, and had a really good time!

Q: So you weren't familiar with Bernie before that?
DC: I'd never met him. Although I've been a Heep fan since a kid. I grew up listening to The Magician's Birthday, and all that stuff - The Wizard, Stealin, Easy Livin, and all those songs. So, of course when somebody said 'the singer from Uriah Heep' - and I knew the original singer wasn't here anymore.

Q: People always say 'they're a British band', and I say 'Yeah and they got a Canadian singer!'
DC: That's true, but i believe his parents are British. I've met his folks, and they're really sweet folks, and they are British. They live here in Victoria. That's why Bernie was coming back that year because he comes back every Christmas to visit his folks. And he got hold of a school friend here named Don Rustall - who's the drummer, and wanted to put this show together. And he'd actually sent forward some cassettes of selected cover songs.

Q: What sort of things did you guys do?
DC: Oh we did some great songs. We did some Sammy Hagar, we did some Foreigner - we did a song called "Hole In My Soul" - excellent song, and I had never heard it before.

Q: You guys just played the 2 gigs?
DC: Yes, unfortunately, we were supposed to do some more, but that's all we were able to do.

Q: Were there any long-term plans to that, aside from the gigs?
DC: No, as far as i know there wasn't. And that's one of the reasons i suggested to Bernie when he was back the next year, that maybe he'd like to do some recording. And he expressed that he'd be really interested in doing it. So we wrote letters and stuff during the year while he was back in Europe, and stayed in contact by letter and phone. And when he came back that's when we did those 3 songs. We actually had planned to do more, but there wasn't time at that particular outing. And the following year he did come back, and we did plan to do the rest of the album, but the hard-drive recorder in my studio crashed [i think] 2 days before he landed here, and it was fixed 2 days before he left! So, we lost the opportunity. And that's part of the reason that we're now getting back to recording again.

Q: What other songs do you have planned for the full album? Have you actually written anything yet, or laid any ideas down?
DC: Bernie hasn't heard any of it yet. He's writing lyrics over there when he gets the opportunity. And generally i present Bernie with close to a finished idea, and that's what I'm currently working on in my studio over the next month. The last couple of weeks I'll be preparing some bed tracks for when he gets here.

Q: Now, the 3 songs that are on the Ep here, can you tell me a bit about each -- what they're about , how they came together?? Starting with "Here We Go".
DC: What happened was there's a little keyboard lick played in that song during the chorus, that's not even that noticeable in the song; and i had been messing around with that on the keyboard, and a friend of mine started playing a drum beat over top of it, and that's how the music for that song was born. And i have a book that i keep all the lyrics that i write but don't necessarily have music for, and it's my lyric binder - i call it. The lyrics that i found in the binder, as i searched through matching up the topic with the feel of the music, I landed on that particular page. And the song is basically about the fact that after so much destruction on this planet by mankind upon other mankind, I can still turn on the TV and find out that in some little country - like the Balkans recently, there's somebody willing to go to war and they're still willing to sacrifice young men's lives over ideals; ya know "here we go again..." It just blows my mind, because it's not like the human race has seen enough of this to have learned the lack of value in doing it. So that's basically the topic of that song.

Q: So, do you get a lot of ideas from current events?
DC: Actually i tend to write political, and I'm trying to stray from it; not because i dislike it, but because I'd sort of like to open up new avenues. I've never been a love song writer, so.

Q: The second track "Hey Jimi" [!?] It's my favorite track on the CD.
DC: I'm glad to hear you say that, it's mine too.

Q: I assume it's about Jimi Hendrix!?
DC: Definitely. I was sitting in my back yard, on my little deck that i have out here, on a really nice summer day here in BC, and i was playing an acoustic guitar that i have [that i have now grown to hate], but i had just gotten it, and i was messing around on some musical ideas. And that whole song i started thinking about Hendrix, and it's strange to think about Hendrix while playing an acoustic guitar without a whammy bar or any of the sound effects that usually go along with him. I did, and the song came out in the space of about 20 minutes. It was just me sitting in the sun in the back yard, on a really nice day, wondering where he is and what he'd be doing if he was still here. And thinking about how there's so many players out there today, and although he's not one of the biggest influences in my life, he's become more of one lately, and there's so many players out there even to this day that he still influences - as a guitarist; and I'm talking new young players who couldn't have heard his albums until long past his time. I believe he change the face of guitar playing forever. He will be one of the few people that will be remembered as altering the past in guitar, which is unbelievable, because there's not that many of them.

Q: What was Bernie's contribution as far as the writing of these songs?
DC: On those 2 songs, quite frankly the songs were presented to Bernie almost in their entirety. Here We Go - I had the whole entire song, i actually had 5 arrangements! What ended up happening was Bernie suggested a sixth, and ultimately the final arrangement for the song - which was really cool! He also helped me re-write the bridge, which is the section about "if we stand here pointing fingers..." So that was basically his contribution to that song, outside of course - he wrote all the harmonies and performed all the harmonies himself. And i would be remised at the least if i didn't say that he enhanced on the melody line that i presented to the guy. Bernie's wonderful to work with. And with "Hey Jimi" - it was less of a contribution than it was to Here We Go. Frankly, i think we changed maybe one word in the entire song, and the arrangement stayed basically the same, but what Bernie brought to that song I felt instantly - I gave the guy part ownership of the song! It was just the 'least i could do' type of thing. I have tremendous respect for his ability as a singer, and his professionality as a performer, and a recording artist.

Q: Well, he's an incredible singer. Especially on the last 2 [Heep] albums, he's changed so much, especially with the last one.
DC: I'm so glad to hear you say that, because he phoned me after he left. Part of the story is that when Bernie left here after recording Picking Locks he went to England to begin recording Sonic Origami, and he phoned me, just about half way through it, and during one of our conversations he expressed to me how he thought coming here and being able to write in a completely new atmosphere, and having a free hand at changing arrangements, and changing melodies if he wanted to -- it opened new doors for him. And he said that it really helped with the recording of Sonic Origami. Now when i got my copy of Sonic in the mail, and played it - i thought that Mr. Shaw, by far, was the best sounding thing on the CD.

Q: Is there anything else you guys did, or even started at the time in that 26 hours you had in the studio?
DC: No, as a matter of fact, there was so little time because those 26 hours were spread over 4 days, and he would basically arrive after some of the commitments he had with family. We'd start here at about one o'clock and go until dinner time, and then he usually had commitments at night again. It was cram as you go, and we basically spent most of the time on those 3 songs, and then the harmonies for the songs.

Q: In "Rock On" did you use a drum machine?
DC: All of those songs are drum sampled songs. The same sample pieces that i used for the first 2 pieces, I used in Rock On as well, but there are some additional sounds in Rock On as well, more techno sounds - that sort of thing. The way the drums are done here is we actually have a pad set and we trigger the samples that we like from the pad; so rather than programming it from a drum machine you're programming from a real kit; you know - much more feel!?

Q: How about as far as the bass and keyboards?
DC: The bass, again was programmed bass - which we will not be doing again.

Q: You don't like the way it came out?
DC: Well, we thought with the sound of it during the mastering, so to bring it out enough that you'd have a real nice fat-bottomed end - you'd either get so much that it was uncontrollable or if you put it back you'd end up losing it; so it was a real compromise during mastering. And as much as i think the keyboard bass suits some music, this will be a lesson actually; in the end it doesn't suit rock n roll! [ha ha]

Q: The keyboards are just kind of background keyboards, so they're not overly effective or outstanding, but they do create an effect on the first track. Did you program them as well?
DC: Yep, that's me as well. I think in the keyboards in Here We Go basically have to set the mood during the verses because there is no guitar at all during the verses. The keyboards in Rock On was a lot of fun for me because it's based on 2 stereo clavinets, the funky clavinet sound - like a Stevie Wonder sound almost - which is one of my favorite sounds from back in those days by the way. So, it's 2 of them in stereo, and they're bouncing back and forth throughout the song playing that lick, and i had a lot of fun with that.

Q: How did you try to do that one compared to the original?
DC: I tried to sort of maintain the recognizeability of the song, you know like if you heard the first line - you'd know it was that song. And that's a s far as i went; after that - the sky's the limit. Whatever i want to do - that's me i want to put into the song. And that's just how i would play the song basically if i had to play it live; which I've done in Banff in the past. But that's just a representation of the recovering that I've done in some of the bands that I've played in.

Q: Your solos - do you usually do them on the spot, or are they a planned out type of thing??
DC: For the most part the solos are left until last. I usually jam on piece several times before i kind of land on a theme that i like. And then once i land on a them that i like i try to get a few good takes of that theme; they won't all be exactly the same, but they'll be that theme. And then once i get the take that i want I actually learn it for a live performance; because some of them i do record with my eyes closed and the studio lights down, and I'm just playing. But i never take it down to a fine set of perimeters because i think you lose some of the emotion of the solo.

Q: Now, Bernie's heard the CD?
DC: Yes, and he's quite happy with it. I think he's quite excited about what's going on because we're getting such a nice response.

Q: Now, is he doing anything promotion-wise at his end in Europe.
DC: Yes, he is the one that put us in touch with the UHAS, and that is how we ended up on page 4 of their publication that just came out, and that's proving to be extremely successful. David Owen has a pile of orders on his already, apparently. And i think that he's forwarding copies to his management in Germany when he gets them. I know that's harder to get a deal for an Ep than an album, and Bernie and I both recognize that when was the decision was made to do this. But in light of missing the opportunity to finish this because of the studio crash that year, we decided that 'let's not wait - let's get it out there, and it will became a prelude to our full album!'

Q: Well, i think that it's an interesting idea because it's not something that somebody will have to fork out $30 to get a copy overseas, so if anybody likes the songs - it won't be a costly thing for them, and it will also be quite a collector's piece for anyone that likes Bernie's work.
DC: Yeah, i think it will be an interesting piece for Heep fans, especially those that have followed the band since Bernie joined.

Q: Are you guys planning on doing any covers on the full album?
DC: Well, i kind of wanted to stay away from that. This project kind of blossomed. This, quite frankly - started as my solo album, and Bernie was going to do some songs on it, and we got on so well, and we had such a good time doing it that it became the 'Collins / Shaw Project' and has lead to wanting to do the full album recording. So, yeah - I'm absolutely pumped about going on and doing more stuff.

Q: Bernie's going to be home for 3 months. Do you guys have anything planned as far as live shows?
DC: Not that i know of, which is a shame actually, because one of the things I'd love to announce to the people ordering our CD is that there will be a show by us, but with his obligations in Europe and his short visit that he has here, and the fact that we want to get as much time in the studio, I don't think we'll have any time to do live shows and i know that there isn't any planned at the moment. However, i have a couple of things up my sleeve, and I'm going to approach a couple of people in town and see if we can't do a little impromptu performance of "Hey Jimi' at a couple of places.

Q: With the recordings and time spent with Bernie, are there any stories?
DC: I'm glad you asked that, because when you mentioned Hey Jimi earlier, a thought went through my mind that i thought you may like to hear.....Bernie has very seldom [being with Uriah Heep] get the opportunity to vocally 'vamp' as he does in the end of Hey Jimi and the end of Rock On. So when i told him that's i wanted in the song it was extremely interesting because he had never done this before. This was something to him that 'I'm sure i can do, but...' . So what happened was that i would set up the microphone and set up the tracks and everything to go, and then I would push the 'start' button and take off down the hall, and just leave him in the studio by himself, so he'd have this total space to himself, and I'd just let him do his thing. And we'd do wacks of tracks of these things, and then after he went back to England I edited them. I edited everything out, and kept just the nice tasty stuff, the stuff that i liked the best, and that became the stuff that you hear at the end of Hey Jimi and the end of Rock On.

Q: That's true, he doesn't do a lot of that, it's kind of like a ........
DC: Free-structured! I think it's that the Heep writes just a different format, a tremendous one, but a different one. And in the end of songs like Hey Jimi it's very similar to old songs like "Free Ride" and "All Right Now". It presents the opportunity for the vocalist to just vamp around and play with the words from the song in the melody that he likes to at the end of the song as the song fades away. And the Heep doesn't necessarily really provide opportunity for that the way that they perform and the way that they write, and i think again, when Bernie phoned me from London after going back there to do Sonic - I think that those sessions doing those vamps were one of the things where he found more of himself; and I think he really enjoyed it.

Q: A lot of the comments about Sonic were that this was he first album where he sounded so much like himself as opposed to trying to sound like David or trying to sound like somebody else.
DC: And I'm telling you exclusively right here that that's basically what he was telling me when he phoned from England, that he found some of himself here while doing Picking Locks. And I was just happy to say 'well, see ya next year!' Great, ya know. Because quite frankly, it was a total thrill and an honor, because the guy came in, he was an absolute professional, and he did such an excellent job on the record.

Q: You're also involved in 'Sleeping Dogs Lie'!?
DC: That's the band that I've put together to support the Ep. We started doing shows in June of this year. I used to be in a band called 'Mr Howl', which I'm not in anymore, but the singer from Mr Howl is the singer in Sleeping Dogs. We only do 1 song from Picking Locks. We actually started writing.

Q: Who else are you going to use on the album with Bernie? Are you going to use a bass player and a drummer?
DC: I'm going to be playing bass, and there's 1 fellow that we may bring in to do 1 or 2 songs on bass. The drumming will be done by myself and/or Don Rustall. He was the drummer in In Transit, and is also the drummer in Sleeping Dogs. And the keyboards will be done by myself, the guitars will be done by myself, and of course - the master of the pipes Bernie Shaw on vocals.

Q: What are you currently listening to? Do you listen to a lot?
DC: [Good question!] These days I'm so busy marketing the CD and running the record label, that i don't get time to listen to much music, but I'm finding that i switched radio stations recently to a station out here called 92.9 Independent FM because they play a mixture of what's going on today and what went on. And I'm a serious enjoyer of old Heep on the radio and old Aerosmith, Supertramp.... - I just love that stuff.

*[Talk ensues about current musical trends, guitar - Dale claims Nuno Bettencourt of Extreme as his favorite newer guitar player of the past decade; and hammond organs.]

Q: You play keyboards; can you do it as well as guitar or is it a secondary thing with you?
DC: All the other instruments i play including bass, drums, and keyboards are all secondary things. For instance i can't play piano with 2 hands, except for limited things. I can generally write on keyboards far more than i have the ability to play. With today's technology you can just program it. I would say that my favorite instrument next to guitar is drums. I love to play drums.

*[Talk ensues about drums, Kevin Williams' whereabouts....]

Q: What's your favorite Heep tracks with Bernie on them?
DC: There's a track he does on Sea Of Light that i really like, but i think he sounds better on Sonic. "Sweet Sugar" would be my favorite from Sea Of Light; I really like the song period, but i also like the way Bernie sings it. It's very reminiscent of some of those bands i mentioned earlier - Free - that whole era. And on the new one I think it's "Across The Miles", as far as Bernie's performance on the record.

Q: What do you think of Mick as a guitar player?
DC: I've always liked Mick as a guitar player. I think, that if i look back at some of my earliest influences it would be Mick Box, Joe Walsh, and the guitarist from Black Sabbath, and of course the guitarist from Deep Purple. Those would be the 4 main influences from the early days. I'd say my number 1 influence these days is still Steve Morse. I get absolutely blown away everytime i listen to the guy.

*[Talk ensues about Steve Morse' works > "He's the bible for me; his whole approach to guitar, i can't get enough of the guy!" Further talk about other guitarists].

You can contact Dale at dcollinsltp@hotmail.com
The CD may be purchased here !
The Uriah Heep.com article on this release may be viewed here
...and visit the official Dale Collins website at: http://www.sound-check.com/dalecollins/

Interview Conducted December 1999
Copyright Kevin J. Julie.